The thirteenth (and second-last) book in the Wheel of Time series will be formally titled Towers of Midnight, the series’ new author Brandon Sanderson revealed last week, with the fourteenth and last to retain its original title A Memory of Light.
The last three books in The Wheel of Time are being written by established fantasy author Brandon Sanderson, who was selected by Harriet McDougal, the widow of the original author, Robert Jordan, after tragically passed away in September 2007 to finish Jordan’s masterpiece. The first book, The Gathering Storm, has already been finished and will be published internationally on October 27.
Last week Sanderson wrote on his blog:
“After a long round of conversations with Tor and Harriet, we settled on TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT as the title. There are various reasons for this, which I’ll go into more once the book is out next year. I’m pleased, however, as this was the title I suggested. It’s actually appropriate in an interesting way. Harriet was the one who came up with the name for the first of the three, and the second one gets the title I proposed. And so, we will (as I’ve been saying for a while) use Mr. Jordan’s title for the final of the three, A MEMORY OF LIGHT.”
Towers of Midnight's working title had been Shifting Winds, but Sanderson had stated several times that it wasn’t the book’s final name. Before he passed away, Jordan had passed on a desire for the final book to be called “A Memory of Light”, although once the book was split into three, a debate began between Tor, McDougal and Sanderson about the exact titles of the three.
The final book, A Memory of Light, for example, had a working title of Tarmon Gai’don, referring to the final battle planned in The Wheel of Time universe.
Speculation has already begun online (more here) about what the title Towers of Midnight refers to, with some highlighting the fact that there is an action location in the Seanchan Empire named The Towers of Midnight, and others wondering if the title refers to a possible corruption of various towers in the books; for example the Aes Sedai White Tower and the Asha’man Black Tower.
I love this series, i have been reading it since i was in 7th grade and i haven’t continued it until now—i’m in my senior year—i’m really exited for this to come out! This is a truly genius creation Mr. Jordan has started. thank you for finishing it!
Hehe me too Kyoko, I’m pretty excited!
hehe, got you beat, i started reading the series when i was in 9th grade, and now i’m 31 years old. RJ took his time putting out a new book.
Lol. He sure did!
Preach it, Eric! My mom and brother got me hooked when I was 12. Now I am going on 31. I’ve lost count how many times I’ve read and re-read the whole series. I’m looking forward to the last two books, but it is with a bitter-sweet longing. When it is over, I won’t know what to look forward to any longer (in a literary sense, anyway). I have spent more than half my life with this series.
I think Sanderson did a fine job with TGS. I’ve read it twice now. I’m very impressed.
I’m with you guys on this. My high school sweetheart got me hooked on this series when I was 14. I am now 28. I feel like I’ve “grown up” with these charecters. I think I’m going to cry my eyes out when that last page is read.
try reading the song of ice and fire series…its pretty good
what date do we hope to have book 13 as i cant seem to find it on any site.
i think that a ps3 game would be grate then you could be rand or matt and be apart of Robert’s world.
sometime in october, 2010. I can’t remember the exact date, i think it was the 13th?
Have you any clue as to when the expected release date will be for the 13th book?
No release date has yet been announced, but likely late in 2010.
Well, my interpretation of The Towers of Midnight. There are a few “Towers” in the series: Tower of Ghenji (not worried bout spelling, and there are, as far as i believe, three separate towers in The Towers of Ghenji =P) The White Tower and The Black Tower. Now in the Age of Legends basically the White Tower included male and female Aes Sedai, as is now separated by The White and Black Towers. Also I never really thought about what may be in the Seanchan Lands. My personal interpretation would be the merging of the White and Black Tower, since now Rand seems to be himself again he may take on the role of the dragon as was in the Age of Legends, I think it was still one step below that of the Amyrlin, if not equal. Although its been a while since I read up on the Histories. Also the fact that Mat is on his way to the Tower of Ghenji to rescue Moiraine who was the main supporter of Rand, or the Dragon Reborn. Another philosophical view would be what would the Forsaken call there head of operations? If there is such a thing as they are more individual then a group, even if they do have a common goal they are more worried about there own standing and probably dont care at all if they are the last one standing among the “Chosen”. Although how do they command all the Darkfriends? Lol, sorry for the long post but there really is no short way to explain even one topic in this series =) Well I’ve burnt myself out with this explanation, any questions or additions are welcome ^^
the head of the forsaken is called nebilus and there was no white tower during the age of legends there was only the hall of servants there was no amyrlin in the age of legends
It could also be that the “Towers” referred to are the seven towers of dead Malkier, Lan’s home that has been cast into darkness. Lan is also on his way across the blight collecting an army to fight against the shadow. He is planning to enter the blight from Tarwin”s gap, which is just south of Malkier. The possibility for an engagement of some kind on his way seems likely. I have to say to me the likeliest explanation is the Tower of Ghenji, But i thought I would give another possibility.
The towers of midnight are in seanchan, they are mentioned the first time we meet eaganin ( misspelled) in the 3rd or 4th book as the place they send people to be questioned/ tortured for the empress.
Eaganin says that the seanchan send the people too the tower of ravens ot be questioned if i remember correctly. But on the other hand the seanchan are a null issue now i believe (other than the ones already on that side of the ocean). due to events that occur in the l
ater books.
I also feel the title refers to the towers of ghenji
If i focus really hard, i think i can channel saiden.
Maybe im the dragon reborn on earth?
I feel that way to but i think i would like to be matt with his gun pouder he will rock in the last book as the witches cant touch him.there for he will be king. (long live me ahem i mean Matt)
haha dont count on it mat. if anyone is the dragon reborn its me.
personally i think the tower of ghenji is what the title refers to. i mean theres been this whole build up with the snakes and foxes and the fact that moiraine is being held there no doubt against her will. The white tower and black tower have had their rivalries in previous books and in the 12th its pretty much come to an end as the white tower is re united, a whole.
they better friken free moiraine.. she’s the coolest character in the book along with mat
Well actually, the rivalries between the white and black tower have not been fixed. The white tower has been reunited yes, but they are still skeptical about the male channelers, even with the “rumours” they have heard about saidin being cleansed. I dont think there just going to let go of their tradition just like that, although Egwene was talking about a new task for the Reds, I think that uniting the white and black tower may be one of the main focus’s on the next book.
i love this serious. i wonder is there a computer game based on these books becuase i was searching one time and came accross a short clip of an animation about aes sedai and the black ajah… i forget where i saw it, but it didnt seem to interpret any part of the books.. which i read religiously…
oops i ment i love this series.. hahaha
There are in fact several games based on WOT. A might and magic type action game which came out in 1999 and was actually pretty decent in its own right, then there was a fan built “mud” game that I never really looked into, and Red Eagle Software is in the process of making a MMO game along the lines of warhammer online, should be released at the same time as the first of the three WOT movies being made by Universal :)
Lets not forget that the M’Hael has been replaced by Sammael, or that 48 sisters were sent the the black tower from the rebels to make the number of asha’man bound to sisters equal to the reverse and subsequently disappeared, and of course the black tower has yet to be rent in flame as Elaida foresaw. I’m guessing the black n white towers are far from done with eachother, but the towers of midnight were spoken of during chapter 40 of book 12 during the explanation of the history of the a’dam. It’s in Seanchan somewhere and I got the sense it was some kind of holding/training center for marath’damane, it could also be another name for the tower of ravens… also in Seanchan. Can’t wait to find out!
“M’Hael has been replaced by Sammael”
What? Sammael is dead — a direct quote from the Creator (RJ) said “Sammael is toast!” He also denied directly that Taim was Demandred.
Indeed he is. Burnt out by balefire.
Whats happened to Taim? You don’t hear of him in the Gathering Storm and i’m looking into the previous ones but cant find anything.
Is he still around?
Hmm, didnt catch RJ saying sammael was dead, just assumed it was him since Rand couldn’t confirm that he hit Sammy with the balefire and the last thing we hear Taim say is “let the lord of chaos rule”, something only Sammael said previously.
Just reread the fight between rand and Sammael since I didn’t remember balefire being used, and it was not. Sammael gets surrounded by mashadar in shadar logoth and Rand just assumes he’s dead, not long after that is the scene where Taim throws out Sammaels catch phrase. To me it would make sense the dark lord either respawned Sammy or protected him from mashadar, and now he’s taken over as the M’hael. Found a conversation online where RJ said Taim is definitely not Demandred but nothing about Sammael, nothing saying “Sammael is toast” either.
oh yea sorry. i was thinking about Rahvin when i said balefire.
But as lol Uberpoodle said RJ stated Sammael was gone and toast.
Seeing as he shares some connection with Taim its a good idea though I dont think it could be as RJ planned out the whole book before beginning to write it and he wouldnt have stated the fact if it wasnt true..
my thoughts on Sammael is that he was affected by Mashadar the same way Padan Fain was. Something to think about anyway.
Ok, so the “Sammael is toast” comment was apparently in a Nov 2000 interview, but it’s not in either of the 11/00 interviews I was able to find transcripts of. If anyone could link to it I’d greatly appreciate being able to see the context. RJ said in a few other Q & A sessions that Lanfear and Ishamael were dead and then of course brought them back as Moridin and Cyndane. He confirms that it was Mashadar alone that killed Sammael, so he could theoretically be brought back the same way. Unless RJ specifcally said that Sammy died the true death and was never coming back, I’d be hard pressed to believe it given the similarites between Taim and Sammy… RJ liked to play with words and “toast” could have a number of meanings.
I was wondering about the Seanchan issue in book twelve. How can Rand come to bound the nine moons now, when first af all they each have their own interpretation of prophecies and secondly things get even more messy with the Seanchan attack on the Tower. Not to mention Traveling that will probably fall in the hands of the Seanchan.
Sorry in advance if you notice any mistakes, this is not my native language.
Hmm, well Tuon is now bound to Mat through marriage, and Mat is already bound to Rand as a friend and more strongly by the effects of Ta’veren, so in a sense he has already bound the nine moons to him as the prophecy said. I’m guessing that there will be more involved though, the Seanchan prophecy regarding Rand is mentioned several times via Tuon saying that the Dragon Reborn will bow before her, but in book twelve she begins to wonder if the prophecy had been misinterpreted… I would bet that there will be another confrontation between Rand/Egwene and Tuon after Rand/Egwene get their towers under control, with the end result being Tuon and the Seanchan coming under Rand’s hand just in time for the final battle. Or it could be done more diplomatically via Rand and Mat’s combined Ta’veren effect pulling an agreement out of her, she was barely able to resist Rand alone in their last talk. Just have to RAFO!
Remember the male a’dam, the black one with two bracelets? Only women who can channel or be taught to channel can link with a man in this manner. Tuon tested for sul’dam and can use a’dam, she punished Joline and Teslyn with them when traveling with Matt in the menagerie. And from the way it was described by Moghedien, it will bind the two of them together with long enough use.
WHAT!!!!! there making a movie this is the first i have heard of it. hopefully its decent and they dont butcher the story to much like they did with the sword of truth tv series (legend of the seeker). not bad books those, nowhere near as good as wot but not to bad. but the tv series sucked. any idea of when they might be starting with the movies? i have always thought that if wot was made into a movie and done right it would surpass lord of the rings.
I started reading these books when i was 10 years old and I am now 21. These books are simply amazing. I have grown lost and loved with all of these characters. I wish it could go on forever. Thank you for finishing the books. Number 12 was fabulous.
Just finished book 12 and it was SUPER!!! :)
Will be a very sad moment when I finish the last book as it will be the end of one of the greatest series EVER.
This is also the first I heard about the movies. Just hope that they will be a near to the books as possible. I know they will leave out a bunch of stuff, but I just hope they don’t change anything.
I mean this could be some of the best movies ever if done right.
Now I will have to look for some new series to read while I wait for the next book.
As for the title Towers of Midnight. Couldn’t it be the fortress that Moridin is stying in in the blight? That could be a tower/towers and the said that it is made of black stone.
Anyway, those are my thoughts :)
I don’t think it refers to the Tower of Ghengi. I honestly don’t think it’s an important enough event to name the book after. Sanderson did say that ToM will focus more on Mat and Perrin as TGS needed to focus on Rand and Egwene, so it is a possibility that Moraine’s rescue will be the most significant event in the book, but I can’t see it being so, with TG being so close. But then again, it could be highly important since in one of the earlier books ( don’t ask me for a reference, it has been while ) a viewing of Min’s says that Rand would fail to win without her. It could be, it could not be. We must RAFO.
accordin to hints in wot 12 .in wot 13 rand the aes sedai and the tuon will join forces and matt will free moiraine while perrin will find his hawk and also make an alliance wid cotl(children of the light) since galad already knows his mother wasnt killed by rand .and aviendha elayne and min will marry rand.i m sure my analysis will be 90% correct
ummm @ ■Anonymous isn’t it called the tower of ravens? And I think that the title dosen’t actually refer to the tower of Ghenji. I think that it refers to Shayol Gaul*, as if you place it side by side to Dragonmount, one is of light, and one is of darkness. But this is just my oppinion, and I’m also curious about the Land of Madmen, and Shara. What role will they play in the novel besides being merely metioned in an absent state? Glad if someone will reply to this.
no shayol ghol & bragonmount arent towers . Wot 13 will deal with joining of white & black towers with crystal thorne
While mat frees moirene from tower of genji
if BRADON SANDERSON u r readin this blog or whateverit is called ,then please please hurry wid completin the WOT series A.S.A.P
As soon as possible we hav already waited 2long 4 this 2 get completed WOT 13 staus bar at web site hardly moves please reply
And on reply leave ur e-mail id 4 us
Thank you and MAY YOU WALK IN LIGHT
ERIC=====>Sammael is dead 4 good .Bcoz sammael might hav been a forshaken but was still a human while padan fain was completely changed by shai’tan 2 mashadar he was as same as himself.so that makes big difference Eric so sammael is nothing 2 worry about now,on the other hand Rand should worry about graendal because she was defeatd/quite eaisly ,from wat i know deafeating graendal should be more difficult than it was shown ………..REPLY
Graendal is dead balefire is something you can come back from its even beyond the abilities of “The Lord of the Grave”. In the the 12th book its mentioned that it is when Rand visits with Ishameal. So Rand will not have to worry anything about her.
I think the title Towers of Midnight might refer to the rising factions in the Black Tower following Taim and Logain. I think that it will come to a conflict between the two in the next book. And as ToM will also probably have the rescuing of Moiraine from the Tower of Ghenji, ToM seems pretty appropriate.
i think that the tower of mid night might refer to the place where the forsaken met when rand was planing to make peace with the senchan in arad domain
I’ve discovered supreme Universe of WOT in 2008 and ever since I am reading and re-reading each and every book …. and will do so until I cannot read any longer and I take my place with the mists ….
I envy you guys who read the book for over two decades for “walking under the Light” longer …. but I will follow in your steps …
Brandon did a great job on the Book 12, but I just can’t WAIT (!!) to get my hands on the next and, of course, the final book …
May you all walk in the Light!
i am 18 the 1st novel that i read was wot in may 2009
Well i think that i am more lucky than those who are readin it from over 2 decades bcoz
I got to read all 12 including new spring at a strech of 6 months its a exellent series
I grade it best among
Inheritance cycle
Narnia
Twlight
Harry potter
LOTR
Since its long and much more detailed series
Brandon sanderson did a good job writing 12 book i specially like last chapter i.e
Veins of gold
though couldnt another tower be the one that mat has to go through to save moiraine?
Shadow’sBane, Graendal probably should have been harder to kill, but I think at the time Rand was dangerously close to becoming insane and merging completely with Lews Therin. At that time he had decided that he would cut all ties with any emotional purpose to better take on his enemy, as he would be very dangerous indeed. He could probably take on all the forsaken with that frame of mind. Although, luckily, he eventually decided to go back to his old self and actually care.
And WOT Fan, there the tower of the Raven is in the seanchan but they also have Towers of Midnight. I believe it is maybe a place of torture there, or for their male channelers or marath damane or something, its not mentioned much, i think like once, but it is in the land of the seanchan.
the tower of the ravens is where nobility, whose blood can’t be spilt, are hung in a bag from a tower until they die. I also got the impression it is a place of interrogation. The towers of midnight are also a Seanchan location, and I got the impression, since Mat is now Prince of the Ravens, that one of these two towers will be his in some way, or he will end up being connected to them in some sense.
But I’m also inclined to think ToM refers to something in the Blight. No basis for this, just a feeling. And I think Taim is Taim, just insane. :P
And BTW, it takes a very good author a year to publish a book about 200-300 pages long. Robert Jordan averaged about every two years. The fact that Brandon Sanderson has been able to push out another authors’ books, which are well over 500 pages, in the high-speed one year time frame is, frankly, amazing! I was expecting to wait a lot longer to get these books, so I am pleased as punch to get them in one year intervals.
When in the land of the snakes and foxes isnt their some Towers seen out of the windows as Mat gets taken to see the snake people and again when he sees the fox people?
Zena, there are actually three towers in the land of the snakes and foxes. The tower he saw was either the one he has already been to or the one he hasnt been to im not sure.
it’s taken me four days to read the 12th book, and i think that brandons done a fine job, i’m not going to speculate on things that are left hanging.
the scope of the stories been way to big for that, you could go mad trying.
i can’t wait for the next two, but i wonder how i’ll feel when it’s all done, when the dust settles and the story ends.
like so many of you, i felt at a loss when mr jordan died, making my own embelishments, carrying the story on in my mind, what will i do when there’s no more???????
elsid — I will b happy bcoz after Mr.Jordan’s
Death we atleast got the story completed I think it has been dragged 2 much , by which i mean addition of New Spring and WOT 10 ,its not that i didnt like the 2 books but it would hav been better if he completed the story .
älskar den här serien. vet nån när 13 boken kommer?
English Please
Must obtain next book asap. finish finish finish. more than half of my literary life has been vested in this. i will weep when done, but i must finish finish finish. good job Sanderson. carry the light. hurry, take me to the last turn.
i understand what you’re saying about needing to have it finnished, but it’s just that there are so many loose ends, can they all be tied up in the last two books?
i thought new spring was a bit of a poor stop gap as well.
i so desperatley want to know but at the same time don’t want it to end.
Elsid—Can u name the loose ends?
Accordin 2 me tey are as follows
1.matt 2 rescue moirene
2.tie up betwn black and white tower & Cotl(children of the light)
3.dragon seanchan deal
4.borderlander talk wid dragon
5.reunity of the three ta’veren
These can be done in the 13th book
While 14th book can deal with only the fight against the Dark One
if i hav missed any loose threads then please mention it
shadow’sbane
you’ve forgotten the gholem for one, plus the land which is closed off to outsiders the name of which escapes me at the mo.
there’s also luc lan’s cousin who was probably the guy hunting in the wolf dream.
i’m pretty sure that min is supposed to figure out what the guy in cairhein was about to tell rand before he was killed, also perrin and mat have to fulfill min’s viewings not to mention others such as galad logain ond the rest.
i’d need to reread the series to remember the rest, but i’m sure there’s another couple.
ELSID
There are 7 Gho’lams 1 of them is after matt
accordin 2 me matt will deal wid him in book 13.
As for the rest of gho’lams they will be kept as a secret weapon for the time of return
2 fight against the aes sedai & asha’man
by ”guy in cairhein” do u mean the philosopher in one of rands school ,
Then rand has figured it out in wot 12 last chapter’s ”Veins of Gold”second last and last page.
As for luc (Isam) perrin has defeated him once and can do it again,he is nothin 2 worry about he not a main character.
as 4 town closed 4 outsiders (Hinderstrap)
It must have been created due 2 a Bubble of evil.
Logain and marzaim taim comes under asha man.black towers which has dark friends in it is remaining to be cleansed .
While u rember white tower was cleansed in book 12.
Perrin ,Rand & Matt hav completed almost all of mins viewings .
Elsid can u give ur e-mail id its eaiser 2 talk dat way
your forgetting padan fain bud, although i’m not talking about the town hinderstrap, i’m talking about the land that has aes sedai who rule for seven years at a time, but i just can’t rmember the name.
where still waiting for the wheel to spin the hero’s back out of the pattern.
although i think olver will be giadal cain the legendary swordsman.
my e-mail address is elsid1975@hotmail.co.uk
i dont know if padan fain has anymore part to play in this series. its never mentioned but im convinced that the destruction of shadar logaoth would of had adverse effects on him.
teedle_de@yahoo.com
RJ stated that Gaidal Cain is not the infamously ugly boy Olver O_O
though who else it could be i havnt got a clue. We also need the birth of Elaynes twins to be included in this discussion xD
Bout time we had a few little dragon reborns running around o_o
Hi Elsid,
This is Shadow’sBane,
Yeah u ver right i seemed 2 hav forgotten
Padan fain ,but i he will directly fight in the last battle
I hav no idea of this place u r takin about
As 4 the heroes frm age of legends 2 spin out
I dont think it will happen
Because it dat happens wat will be the use of horn of al vere .
Accordin robert jordan olver is not gaidal cain
The name Elsid is forgetting is Shara (the land that Noal is constantly talking about). As for Demandred, it was once said “he always did like to use proxies” so I feel that although RJ said that Demandred wasn’t Taim, I think he is the one pulling his strings or whatever is meant by “proxy”. I also think that maybe Rand will bow before the crystal throne… who cares if Fortuona (Tuon) is the Empress, as long as her forces fight in the last battle, although I am not sure how Rand will be able to do this since she will want to collar all of the channelers.
What about Cyndane being significantly weaker in the one power than Lanfear was? Is that a hint to something or did the Dark One decide she needed punished beyond putting her soul in the necklace thingy that Moirdin wears? Or is Lanfear also alive in the Tower of Ghenji?
I also think Birgitte will be bound to the horn once again by proving herself a hero… After the battle at Falme I remember Artur Hawkwing telling Hurin that there are always new places for new heros…
nikki– cyndane is lanfear its there in book 9
As far bowing before the empress thing goes , i dont think rand is going to bow before her.
The may be deal or sumthing .
seanchan actually misunderstands the channlers because when they were sent oversea by athur hawking i.e during the war of hundred years , that time aes sedai were their enemies so thier hatered has been carried for generations.as for now they hav much greater foe i.e THE SHAI’TAN himself.
Accordin to me they will put away their differences .
I think that Rand will bow to the Crystal throne because in The Gathering Storm, he realized that everyone was peaceful and well taken care of in those cities. So he’ll let the Seanchan rule the cities while he prepares for the last battle. Remember the prophecy, “The North and West must be as one. The South and East must be as one. The two must be as one.” So Rand already has the north and west. (Borderlands and Cairhien, Tear, Illian, Mayene, etc.) The Seanchan have almost the south and east. (Ebou Dar, Tanchico, Falme, etc.) So….. Maybe Rand will let the Sanchan take over?
and as far as discontent amomg the seanchan armies goes even the most dimmwitted person understands the difference between war to rule and war to survive.
I dont understand what u r sayin about demandred can u explian in detail
And there are only two books left Shara will not be taken as a major event
This is Niki with one “k”- I’m new here ;o).
U still haven’t addressed Cyndanes weaker strength… The Seanchan prophesies say that he bows to the crystal throne, that doesn’t necessarily imply the Empress.But maybe ur right and they will be able to set aside their differences although their metting in GotS didn’t seem to be setting a truce up. If the Empress denied him once, why would she turn around and make a deal with him now?
I cannot remember which book it was that briefly mentioned Demandred and his use of proxies but I will look it up.
I’m still not so sure the Sharans aren’t going to be involved somehow. It seems like the series can’t end without addressing them. Why create an entire people and leave them shrouded in mystery? But maybe ur right…
In LoC- Sammael is visiting Graendal and says something like “Events in the south have Demandred’s name all over them… He always did like to us proxys.”
i meant “use” proxys
Nikki–oops sorry
Niki–
I dont remember any about cyndane havin weaker strength ,as a matter of fact when cyndane is first introduced to greandal ,greandal gets stunned when she notices that the strength of cyndane was greater than her strength,
U r rigth about rand bein turned down once by the empress ,then why would he return 2 her ,but u r forgetting that tuan is matts wife
And 2 rand that will mean sumthin(wen he comes 2 know ) .
Sharans they might play a role as a army that might attck the dark forces durin last battle (i.e wat i think)
I dont know about demandred and his”proxies”.
Can u give me ur e-mail address
suvudu is holdin cage matches between characters of various fantasy novels
Rand Al’thor is in it ,He smoothly won round 1 against lock lamora,now he’sfightin conan the barbarian ,the is fighting script written and there a pridicted winner ,but the real winner wins by number of vote given to him,Rand is doing quite well on his own i.e he is leading but your vote will help him defeat conan in much more better way
So go to Suvudu.com
AND
VOTE FOR RAND AL’THOR TO WIN THIS BATTLE
FATE OF BATTLE LIES IN OUR HANDS
okay here is my email:
mommaniki0623@gmail.com
I’m surprised that you are not remembering correctly about Cyndane’s strength. When Greandal comments about it- it is to say how she is surprised that Cyndane is the obvious mistress between her and Mogheiden even though Mogheiden is the stronger of the two. It is also commented on almost everytime Cyndane is at one of the Forsaken meetings. How long has it been since you’ve read the entire series? I just finished it again so it is fresh in my mind. I’ll try to pull up a few of the passages…
Right, about Tuon being Mat’s wife now. Tuon is NOT going to change her mind about making a truce with Rand. When she met with him in GoS, she knew he was Mat’s friend already. When he finds out she is now his best friend’s wife, Rand may change his attitude toward her and decide that his pride isn’t as important as the Last Battle and then decide to kneel to her. I just don’t see Tuon changing her mind (although her name is now Fortuona :).
I’ve also heard a theory about Demandred using the Prophet as his proxy, but I seriously doubt that. All we ever hear is how swollen his pride is and he mentioned in that last Forsaken meeting that his “army” is ready. I seriously doubt that ragtag affair that Maesma had would suit Demandred. I think Taim is his proxy.
niki
i think the reason rand couldn’t force a truce with tuon was simply because he was suffused with the power of the dark, which he used to escape the manacles, but now he’s finally resolved his inner turmoil atop dragonmount, i think he stands a chance of bending tuon to his will.
i also think that the sanchean prophacies have probably been doctored over time to flatter the emperor/empress
as for masema being used by demandred is neither here nor there as faile killed him in the last book, and his army was broken helping perrin agaist the shaido.
but taim is a different matter as he’s obviously controlling the ashamen, but then there is a division of the ashamen between taim and logain, both being false dragons, they’ve attracted thier own followers within the black tower, although min did say that logain was destined for greatness when she viewed him in the white tower, seeing a golden crown or somthing above him.
WH chapter 13: Wonderful News…
“She was a puzzle to Demandred. AT first he had thought she was Lanfear reincarnated. Bodies for transmigration supposedly were chosen by what was available, yet Osan’gar and Aran’gar were proff of the Great Lord’s cruel sense of humor. He had been sure, until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear.”
I only post this passage so that you know she is weaker than Lanfear had been before. There are too many other clues letting you know she is, indeed, Lanfear for any doubt to be remaining in my mind. I can only think that these clues of her being weaker are trying to tell us something like she was stilled before she died. This website targets Cyndane’s character in much detail.
http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.4_cyndane.html
niki
I read the series a year a ago so i might forget some things
If ur thinking of taim being demandred proxies u might be rightbecause he is able to form an small army in black tower and evidently he is dark friend,and this might be demandred’s ”army”.
And it has never been in wot books that cyndane is lanfear but when greandal is introduced to cyndane ,she(greandal) also thinks that ” the way this woman talks about lewis therin she reminds me of lanfear”
And masema was not a dark friend so forget thinking about him as a demandred’s proxy ,he actully lost his mind when he travelled through portal stones and was overly impressed.and he does not matter anymore because he is dead i.e killed by faile
Tuon turned rand down because he was usin his power as ta’vern power to make her sign the deal and she was able to refuse because she herself is an weak ta’veren herself .when Rand comes to she is matt ‘s wife he ‘ll change his mind i m sure of it.
The forshaken to be worried about is greandal because rand believes that he killed her , she even might have fled because she understand human mind better than any one else and might have seen through Rands plan.
U r right about cyndanes weaker strenght i seemed to have forgotten it.
And what about padan fain….??,he is also a key character and is as powerful as a forshaken.
There are many more things to worry about
The 7 gho’lams ,sharans,morindin,demandred,worms frm the blight & other shadow spawn,the elfeen and alfeen.
AND THE DARK ONE
Elsid-
You’re totally right. That is why Rand couldn’t force her. That darkness that surrounded him was down right spooky. I’m glad he was able to pull out of it (esp. without killing anyone he loves!)
Maybe you’re right about him being able to bend Tuon to his will next time, but I wouldn’t count on it. I still think that the Seanchan prophesies are accurate. They even talk about the Wolf King with his hammer. They may have been doctored, but I’m not convinced. The crystal throne is a ter’angreal that puts you in awe when you are in it’s presence. Now that the Seanchan have traveling (since they’ve captured at least one Aes Sedai who knew, Elaida)maybe they’ll go to Seanchan and bring it back to help Tuon bend Rand to HER. Just speculating…
About the Prophet- I knew he was not of import, just throwing out a theory I heard… But I never realized that it was the trip through the portal stones that made him go crazy. That makes so much more sense to me now! Thanks Shadow’s Bane!
I hope Mat finally lets Elayne study that foxhead of his so that she may be able to duplicate it… I don’t know how they are to deal with those gholam if not. But maybe not all 7 are located? The one after Mat was found in a Stasis Box, so we can at least hope that some of those others are in Stasis Boxes under the ocean!
Padan Fain is the one who worries me. I’m anxious to see what part he plays.
the thing is niki
the white tower has held a copy of the prophesies, since the white tower was completed, which way outdates any from hawkings decendents.
but then the sanchean prophecies haven’t been properly explained, the only real bit we know about them is the bit where the dragon reborn is suposed to bow to the crystal throne, but i don’t see rand going to sanchean, or the crystal throne being moved, so it’s influence can’t be excerted on rand at all, where as hes is the strongest ta’veren thats ever been, he will shape those around him.
niki–
Hoping that statis boxes wont open is a solution ,all the seven gho’lams are gonna fight in the last battle and so will fain or he might fight along side rand (just my theory) to take his revenge against dark one for making him go through all the agony and changing him internally(just my theory ).
And according to me the True Power(dark power)doesnt belong to the dark one ,its a power of ta’veren that allows him to change pattern arround him in a way he wants ,Rand himself says this to cadsuane ”i will not kill you by sword nor by sai’din,i will just wish u to be dead and the pattern will weave it arround me”
Niki after u did mention abut cyndane i hav been giving this topic a lot of thought
I think she will play very imp role in the coming books her name itself suggests it
”last chance”
elsid –its asha’man not asha’men
The asha’man under taim are mostly dark friends ,
And i dont think seanchan prophecies are decorated at all ,and niki the crystal throne may be a ter’angreal but its not here it in seanachan homeland ,by the Drgon BOWING to Empress might imply sumthing else,
After all ,all prophesies were in old tongue and as it says in the series that ”old tongue can never be translated properly(completely)”. accordin to me by bowing the prphecy means this–rand has never bowed to anyone all kingdoms he has taken by force or offered him alliance ,in case
Of seanchan he actully went to negociate to him its bowing his head,
What do you think of greandal…..???
Graendal is dead. If Graendal was alive then the weave she placed on what-his-face would not have disappeared. And the True Source is the dark one, it’s the source that they tapped into in the Age of Legends which turned out to be the dark one himself, which would also explain the dark aura around him at the time of him being able to use it. As for the prophecies from seanchan, they could actually be accurate, since they have a better memory of artur hawkwings time. And I reckon Rand will find some sneaky way to bow down to the Empress while at the same time not, I’m sure some Aes Sedai will cook up some plan after the White and Black Towers finally start working together lol.
Ray MacMahon–
Greandal understands human brains better than anyone else , its her speciality to see through traps,So when Rand sent his man (i dont remember his name)in the greandal’s palace she might have used one of her servant who could channel saidar to use compulsion on Rand’s man,then sent him back to Rand and fled the palace through the gateway .and when Rand used balefire to destroy the palace he destroyed the servant who did compulsion on his servant instead of Greandal ,so the compulsion on rand’s man vanished ,and rand end up thinking he killed Greandal.
(my theory)
And as far as true power beings the dark ones power u r forgetting that Dark One himself is a big Ta’veren.and darkness around Rand wasnt actully there was it..??
It only appeared to person seeing rand from the corner of the eye.
May you walk in light
i think ray has the right of it here.
the aes sedai from the age of legends, drilled the bore to tap a new power they’d discovered, but it wasn’t ta’veren.
as lewis therin was ta’veren he would have been able to tap into the power without ever boreing a hole to the dark one.
the only reason rand could use it is because the dark one wants to turn him and always has.
True, and I never thought of The Dark One being Ta’veren, although I thought that Ta’veren were there to fix the pattern, whereas the Dark one being Ta’veren would be a contradiction on itself. Although it could be likely. And the darkness around Rand is more of an aura than visible, and only visible (if only from the corner of their eye) by those who can touch the force or are connected to Rand. And more felt by others. But with compulsion, would it be likely that one of her servants had the skill that Graendal had with compulsion? It is my understanding that no-one could match Graendal with her skill in compulsion and the compulsion that was used on whats-his-name was complex which leads me to believe that it had to be made by Graendal. And also I dont think that Graendal would have known how dark Rand had become at that point and may not have forseen his quite inhumane approach at defeating her. Possible of course but unlikely in my opinion.
There was at one point a book of the history of the wheel of time, sort of like a timeline (not a novel of sorts) since before the bore was made in the wheel to the Dark One, which they had believed to be a limitless source of the One Power. That is why I believe that the True Source is indeed power siphoned directly from the Dark One. And Rand did not actually have access to it, rather through Moridin as they are connected somehow, I can’t remember how.
once again i think rays almost spot on.
Graendal would never allow someone else to live with her who could channel or think for themselves, she used compulsion on everyone.
i just think that people are seeing to much in things, i believe that the way it’s been writen has left it open to debate, but ultimately i believe that she’s dead, and there ain’t no coming back from balefire.(but i have been wrong before so who know’s)
As for rand using the one power, it’s obvious that rand and Ishamael/moridin, are linked (and my theory is that ishamael will return to the light, as he seemed distracted when last confronted by rand, almost weary with everything)
it was like ray said through that link that rand used the dark power, but it was through necesity to save min, but now he’s once again his old self, the aura of darkness around him will have been lifted.
Ray–
Greandal could of cource hav guided her servants to do cumpulsion ,it only my theory.
Because i m not very sure that a forshaken as clever as greandal would die this eaisly.
But u could be could be right about Greandal not knowing Rand became this dark,and might hav fallen to his trap.
elsid & ray–
Greandal has servants that can channel one power and are totally under her cumpulsion
Elsid –
May be you are right i am seeing to much in this topic .But the only thing is i am not satisfied that greandal would die this eaisly.
And there was a easy way for her to exit ,like i metioned several comments ago
and for dark one not being a ta’vern
I would like you to define what a ta’varen is before giving my theory
“Only a few individuals, special souls known as ta’veren, can cause the fabric of the pattern to bend around them, changing the weave. These ta’veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change.These key threads often produce major vaiations in the Pattern of an Age. Such major changes are called, in the old tongue, ta’maral’ailen, or the “Web of Destiny.
“Even the ta’veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out a ta’veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling fir those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel’s own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta’veren spun out into the world.”
“The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the wheel, the One Power that drives it- as well as the plan for the Great Pattern- and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.”
These passages I took from “The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time” written by RJ and Teresa Patterson. These two passages lead me to believe that the Dark One in NOT ta’veren. The Pattern spins these individuals out and seeing how the DO exists OUTSIDE the pattern, I don’t see how this is possible. He does, however, have an unbelievable amount of power: I understand this to be what the Forsaken call the “True Power”. Seeing how even Lews Therin was SUPER afraid of this power once Rand channeled it, I think this power can be attributed to the DO.
@ Ray- Moirdin and Rand are linked b/c at Shadar Logoth when they both channeled balefire, the streams crossed. Ever since then they’ve had this strange awareness of each other. This explains why he was able to access the True Power. Also once Semirhage realizes Rand is channeling the True Power she asks aloud why the Great Lord betrayed her. This tells me that this True Power is definitely the Dark One seeing how you need his permission to channel it (a privilege only given to Moirdin right now if I remember correctly.
As for Graendal- I think she is dead. I fell that given her cunning and talents at manipulation RJ and/or BS are showing us how cunning Rand has become to be able to defeat her. I don’t remember any allusions to her keeping channelers around her, only maybe the Sharans (were they the Ayyad?) she imported to impress Sammael that one time.
elsid’ray & nikki–
I haven’t read world of robert jordan.its difficult to get your hands on WOT books in india specially after RJ death
You dark one has all the properties of ta’veran i.e
He can bend pattern to his will ,Even destroy it ,influence(temp/scare)them to do as he wishes,pattern also he has the greatest luck (the dark one’s own luck) which is also the property of ta’veren,
This was my theory But its not valid after reading what u posted ,Thanks Niki
I’ll try to get my hands on world of Rj as soon as i can
GOOD NEWS!!!
Rand Al’thor has cleared round 2 of ”cage matches ”held at http://www.suvudu.com and has
Advanced to QUATER FINALS
He will be facing Ronald the Gunslinger from
Stephen King’s Dark Tower series at 22nd March 2010
so all the WOT fans make sure to vote for rand to clear the quater finals
The fight is written & the result is predicted
But the one who gets the most votes makes to the next round
MAY YOU ALL WALK IN LIGHT
In “The World of Robert Jordan…” there is a map of Seanchan. In one city called Imfaral there is labeled “Towers of Midnight”. In the text it also talks about the Tower of Ravens and that is definitely where the Seekers take individuals to be questioned. They are two separate places. So that means that this next book will definitely have some action in Seanchan- esp. given that they can travel now since they have Elaida- and Fortuona (previously Tuon) will be able to go to her Crystal Throne if she wishes. Seeing how EVERYONE can travel now (except shadowspawn of course!) it could be that Rand meets with Fortuona in Seanchan and is overawed by her Crystal Throne which is a ter’angreal. Maybe not, I’m not sure. The Seanchan prophesies def. have things in them that are spot on that our prophesies say nothing about. The Wolf King with his hammer for one and
Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky.
You cannot dismiss ALL of the Seanchan prophesies, but I also read something else of interest. In the first book EotW, Ishamael goes on and on about the things he has done since the Dark One’s prison was sealed and one was this…
“I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come.”
He was definitely sowing chaos, which by the way “Let the Lord of Chaos Rule” was not just Sammael’s catch phrase, it was an order from the Dark One I think. He knew that the Seanchan returning would make more for the Dragon to deal with. So, their prophesies could definitely have been tampered with by Ishmael in order to cause fighting over who should be bowing to who while the Dark One escapes and wreaks havoc!
So many twists!
nikki –
You know the thing i most worried about is shaidar haran
He is very suspisious character (strange myadrall) dont you think .he can cut the people from one power
And cant go far away from shayol ghol .
i think he is a avataar of dark one ,he came into the series in book 6 after 4 or 5 seals on dark one’s prison were destroyed ,so i think like he is some kind of faux body which dark one uses as a puppet directly under his contol ,he might have been formed due to dark power of balzanar seeping out of the prison.
If only is avataar is this powerfull .
Just think how powerful Dark One will be ,which makes me think how is Ramd supposed to defeat him with casodean kal destroyed……???
shadow’s bane-
I think you are right on about Shaidar Haran. I also came to the same conclusion.
Don’t forget about what Min just discovered in one of Harid Fel’s books about Callandor and the three that will be as one. It seems as though this is the way to victory for Rand. I think the two women will be Alivia and Nynaeve who are the two strongest women channelers known right now. But still, if I were Rand, I wouldn’t have destroyed the Choden Kal!!!
the quater finals of http://www.suvudu.com are not going as easy as the first two rounds
Rand might loose to Ronald the Gunslinger,
and the prediction of the editors are against him ,
So plz vote for him & ask ur friends (wot fans or not )to vote for him
Just had to comment after readin Niki last comment and was wonderin whats ur take on the whole deal that something must touch the darkone in order to seal him as but in GS
Scion-
Well, last time it was saidin and that resulted in the taint, but Lews Therin keeps saying his plan backfired b/c the women wouldn’t help. Maybe it they channeled something through Callandor (both saidin and sadiar) all will be well. But don’t forget Rand has been playing around with the idea of actually KILLING the Dark One. No one seems to be sure if this is possible, but maybe this is what Herid Fel figured out and why he was killed…
Niki
How can some one figure out a way to kill dark one by reading books…?.How many people you think will write book on DARK ONE.,
Ur right about attacking dark one with the entire one power(saidin & saidar) might seal him completely like before .but do you think rand would be able to recreate a seal as powerful as creator made himself
I don’t know about anyone figuring out how the Dark One can be killed through books- it was just a thought.
And yes, I do think Rand will be able to seal the Dark One back up as powerful as the Creator made it originally. Remember the last time Rand met with Harid Fel? He was talking about how as the Ages turn things that once were will always be again… in this case there WILL come a time when the Dark One is completely imprisoned again. And equally, there will come a time when curiosity and the want for more power gets the better of people and they will tap into it again, etc.
niki
I remember Rand’s talk with Halgrid Fel,about the same events happening again and again after equal intervals of time ,but this time rand is going to try to stop it that’s why he is opening schools everywhere to keep the knowledge alive .
But again there is a chance that the future generations might think of this knowledge as myths and legends and then again try to tap the true power
By
Shadow’sBane
Hi niki
I just had a thought that even if Rand finds a way to kill Dark One ,and succeds in it ,
Padan Fain might take the place of the Dark One ,because Mashadar was almost as powerfull as Dark One ,and Fain has totally merged with him ,in addition to the changes made in him he merely a human now,he does not remember himself as padan fain anymore
And considers him self as Mashadar.
Thinking of it ,i think the only reason Mashadar was less powerfull because he was not able to move out of the borders of Shadar logoth & and during the day,now combined with Fain he move anywhere anytime.Just my theory
By Shadow’sBane
personally i think that now rand hes become one at peace with himself he will have access to all of lewis therins vast knowledge and min will be the one to help him figure out how to seal the dark one away agian, i seriously doubt that the dark one could be destroyed, that would be like being able to kill the creator, but then rand will probably fight with the creators might at the last battle.
and seing as it’s the end of the series it could be feasable.
but i don’t think mashadar could rival the power of the dark one, as that would give it god like status, although who knows the bounds of it’s powers.
and niki could you let me know where you got the info about the sanchean prophacies?
I truely doubt that Rand will kill the dark one seeing as how that would also put an end to the Wheel. No dark one no bore no bore no end to the age of legends etc.
hi elsid
You know dark one can never be as powerful as the creator ,he can not even be close ,neither can Rand
You know you can’t compare Creator with any one espicially with filth like shai’tan Its a sin.
And do not underestimate Mashadar,Mashadar was a creature born in Aridol from the hatered and mistrust between the people there ,it comsumed the souls of all people living there
I think the source of sesnchan prophecies that niki has is frm world of wheel of time by jobert jordan & teressa patterson
I personally dont think that Mashadar could rival the Dark One either. But don’t foget that Fain is a hybrid between Mordeth and his original self, not Mashadar. You may be thinking of the time he was caught in Machin Shin (sp?) when following Rand through the Ways. But I still dont think Fain could rival the Dark One.
The Seanchan Propgesies that I wrote of before didnt come from “the world of…”
“Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky.”
came from Crossroads of Twilight and…
“When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.”
came from Knife of Dreams, which was recited to Perrin by Banner-general Tylee Khirgan of the Ever Victorious Army.
niki
I wasn’t talking about these prophecies but of what u told about tower of midnight in your earlier comments ,
And fain merged with mordeth , mordeth is a part of mashadar like all the people of aridhol and i m not thinking of the BLACK WINDS(MACHIN SHIN),actually forget about the fain and dark one thing it was just a thought that came in my mind.
And thanks for reminding me of ways i almost forgot about them ,no one uses them since they rediscovered travelling exept the shadowspawn ,do you think they are now cleansed and pure as before
Since the saidin has been cleansed,
And about the ogeriors they were planning to flee from this dimention their summit was being held in some steeding .loial and his family were going to that summit
Do you think that gho’lam that killed helgid fel and the one after matt are/the same.
The ways will probably clean themselves over time as they were tainted over time
the previos votes for Quater Finals matches at http://www.suvudu.com has been cancled ,there will be new polling ,Rand is fighting against Ronald the gunslinger of stphen kings dark tower series .
There is a good chance he will loose to him becoz ronald is also quite famous and the winner is decided by the vote given to him
So i ask all WOT fans to SWEAR IN THE NAME OF LIGHT that the VOTE FOR RAND and ask their FRIENDS(WOT FANS OR NOT)TO VOTE FOR HIM.
MAY YOU WALK IN LIGHT
hiya shadow’sbane
i wasn’t saying that rand would be the creator incarnate, i’m mearly saying that the creator will use rand as a conduit and through him fight for the light, the same as the dark one will use isheamel.
may peace favour everyones sword.
oh and niki thanks for the orientation on those prophacy lines, i’m working my way back through the series again, so no doubt i’d have got to them eventually
Hi Sid,
Frm where did come to knoe that dark one is gonna use Ishmaeal to fight i dont remember reading it anywhere…………..???
I don’t think the Ways are suddenly cleansed… Remember once the taint was gone, any signs of madness that the Asha’man already had were still there. But maybe they can be cleansed in a similar way. I bet Nynaeve will figure it out. Also- right before Aviendha left Elayne, they discovered that she had the Talent for knowing what each ter’angreal could do. They found the Talisman of Growing (the gift that the male channelers gave the Ogier so they could grow more Ways as they found more stedding). Maybe with that someone will be able to salvage the Ways.
I think Loial will be able to convince everyone a the Stump that they need to stay and help fight the Dark One. Also maybe they can help bridge the gap between the Seanchan and this land.
I remember reading that the Creator uses the Dragon Reborn as his champion, but nothing about the Dark One using Ishmael. If he “uses” anyone I think it most likely to be Shaidar Haran.
Loose end list i can think of:
1 Anyone wonder who killed Asmodean? *stabbed in a pantry/closet*?
2 Tower of Ghenji
3 Seanchan/rand
white/black tower
4 Rand/Taim
5 Rand/Egwene
6 Rand’s children
7 The Horn of Valere
8 what Cadsuanne is supposed to teach Rand
9 Padan Fain
10 Perrin/Islan*spelling* (the wolf killer)
11 Lan’s army
12 Shara
13 The Ways
14 Birgitte *still a hero of legend?* and Gaidal Cain
15 The ogier Loail to speak to the ‘great stump’
16 Seanchan kingdom and the tower of ravens
All i can think of at the moment…add any or thoughts!
i agree with u niki
That if dark one uses anyone it will be shaidar haran.
I read that ”creator uses humans to fight with the dark one ” there is nothing about him controling Rand,he gives people options to what to do ,it depends on their choice.
I agree with you Shadow’sBane the Creator sounds an awful lot like the Christian God make man give him rules see what happens
what do you think happened at falme, both rand and isheamel had tendrils linking them, rand to the creator and isheamel to the dark one.
i could be wrong but i think that something like that could happen at the last battle.
as for shaidar haran he’s still only a myrddrall, who’s nae’blis eh, the one to rule in the dark ones name, which has always been isheamel/ baralzamon (forgive any spelling mistakes)the heart of the dark, especialy now that they are linked, they’ve faced each other time and again, how could it be any differen’t, (and here’s an idea) if as i suspect that isheamel is tired of the merigoround of these battles, he would finnaly wish to see and end to it once and for all, i think he will betray the dark lord to help rand kill the dark one.
(but we’ll just have to wait and see)
I dont think thats the case elsid when rand met with ishamel in TGS ishamel believed that the only way to end the struggle was for the dark one to win and stop the wheel forever but it has its possibilities
oh and by the way i never said the creator would use rand i said that rand would fight with the creators backing, useing the creators power channeled through rand, but ultimatley controled by rand.
sid–
You cant call Shaidar Haran just a myadrall,
Dark One says this to demandred (he shall speak for me),he can channel true power ,
And can appear any where he wants,has a sense of humour i.e unusual for myadrall,.
and about ishmeal , he did look fed up of this WOT cycle in his last meeting but hoping that he will change side is like hoping that DARK ONE will give CHARITY, or like Captain commander of the WhiteCloaks marring the Amrilyn Seat , or like Mat giving up Gambling.
but impossible is a word in dictionary of fools so we will have to wait and see
Something ive been wondering,
Rands teacher guy (sorry dont have the books infront of me) said that if rand dosnt defeat the dark one then somebody else will…
Now, take the visions of logain
(sorry i cant quote exactly maybe somebody else can)
He will climb over Rands body and put on a crown? (I THINK???)
Now, take this information that nikki grabbed (thanks)
“Even the ta’veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out a ta’veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern.”
Now, has rand begun to drift away from the pattern yet? He is supposed to wear a crown, i doubt Tuon will make any deals with him since she sees him as evil,
We know his blood will be on the rocks of shaol ghul now…. will it be sooner or later?
jon–
I dont remember helgrid fel(rand’s teacher) ever saying that to Rand,if anyone is going to defeat Dark One its gonna be Rand its in this age or some another age,because its his destiny ,he was chosen by the light to do this ,and even Marked by the pattern,light never chosses the wrong person,if he does not fullfil his prophecies and dies the world is doomed,and i think he will crown logain like the crowned his bard in Tear.
He did recover from the darkness in WOT12 the Gathering Storm’s last chapter the veins of gold,Fortuona(tuon)will make a deal with him sooner or later,after rand comes to know that She is Mat’s wife I think he will go to her and persuade her in more civilised way rather thhan forcing her using his ta’vaern nature.
Having his blood on shayol ghol,this means he will have to die Min saw that Aliva the Ex-damane will help him die.
What do you think of it Niki , Elsid
I don’t remember Herid Fel saying that either, but he definitely was discussing how when the Age comes around again the Dark One’s prison will be flawless again. That is, if the Dark One doesn’t win and re-make the Wheel in own dark image.
The Light doesn’t choose the wrong person, but here is another quote from “The World of…”
“It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially those born ta’veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.”
Shadow’s Bane- so according to this, yes, the Creator gives people a choice, but to assure the balance, you must strive to achieve your best destiny. Also… The Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light (Galad Damondred) could very well marry the Amyrlin Seat (Egwene al’Vere). That is if she wasn’t already set on bonding his brother! But in all seriousness, I hope that by him being their leader they may return to being what they were when they were founded… a gentle “priesthood dedicated to proselytizing against Darkfriends.” [from "The World of...]
Elsid- Shaidar Haran is not Nae’blis, Moirdin is. Shaidar Haran is the Dark One’s arm or something like that. It is believed is the Dark One’s avatar. You may be right about those cords, but… I remember when Rand was fighting Asmodean and he severed that black cord. He told Lanfear Rand had severed his connection to the Dark One and he now was susceptible to the taint. But I was under the impression that those cords were what tied the channelers to the True Source. Remember at the Eye of the World? When Rand stole that cord from Aginor? Aginor was like “No, you cannot have it! It’s mine!” And after that the HUGE pool of saidin was drained. That cord was definitely saidin. Maybe that black cord enables the Forsaken to tap into the True Power. So it stands to reason that Ishamael (Moirdin) would always have it since he is Nae’blis and the only one who is permitted to use the True Power at this time. (Grendal mentioned this).
Ishamael (at the beginning when he was in Rand, Mat and Perrin’s dreams) was always talking about how this struggle had gone on since the making of the Wheel. Another quote from “The World of…”
“Some particles have survived of his (Elan Morin Tedronai aka Ishamael) writings from after he went over to the Shadow-probably letters- indicate that it was his belief that the war between the Shadow and the soul of Lews Therin had gone on since the creation, an endless war between the Great Lord of the Dark and the Creator using human surrogates.”
Just a point I thought would help shed light on the situation. I think the Dark One uses whoever proves the most useful. Ishamael was equaled by none but Lews Therin for strength in the Power, and is also “Foremost of the thirteen who formed the high counsel of the Shadow’s force”. But the struggle is ultimately between the Dark One and the Creator using human surrogates.
I, however, cannot believe that Ishamael will turn against the Dark One. He was one of the first to pledge himself to the Shadow. He was also reported as being “more than half-mad and less than half-human”. And use of the True Power leads to something so terrible even the other Forsaken shiver to think of it. Ishamael (Moirdin) doesn’t even use saidin anymore- only the True Power. I think his weariness is some condition brought on by this. It has never been elaborated on as far as I know.
Jay-
I have NO idea who killed Asmodean. I always figured it to be Demandred, because RIGHT after Asmodean disappeared, in comes Taim (whom I think is being controlled by Demandred). I think Asmodean would have known immediately that Taim was being controlled, if not also by whom. That is just my theory though. I’ve also heard that Fain killed him. But I think whoever killed him would of had to be able to Travel s to dispose of the body. Rand still thinks he ran away or something.
Jon- Rand already wears a crown- the Crown of Swords from Illian. Maybe Logain will end up with it? And Rand isn’t drifting away from the pattern… the ta’veren are spun out to correct drifts in the pattern.
I still don’t think foTUONa will make any deals with Rand. Hopefully, he will just bow to her and then their forces can tackle the Dark forces together. I feel they MUST be united to win. Remember Rand’s answers from the Aelfin?
Yes, Rand HAS to die. But to live, he must die. The obvious answer is reincarnation (like always), but I don’t think Elayne, Aviendha, or Min are going to be left like that. Esp. with his babies…
your idea, niki, is a good one, but i think that it may just be that Rand dies and is brought back like he brought back Matt when he was hung. good old CPR. but that does seem like quite the cop out doesn’t it
wow now that’s a reply
Sorry about that… I hadn’t commented for about seven posts and my thought were all building up!
:)
niki–
I was just joking about the big comment . ;)
I think Logain will become tamyrlin after the last battle is done and I think Rand has been cured by the dark one after using true power. lewis Therin was stopping him to use it. So, it was logical for Shaitan to cure him and let rand decide whether to use true power or saidin. Also shaitan made him destroy the Choedan Kal which Rand was using in order to stop himself from using the true power.
maybe, just throwing something i came up with while tired lol, but, i dont think reincarnation is whats going to happen,
to live, he must die, IE if he wants his children to live, he must sacrifice himself at the last battle
sunrider, after you swear to the dark one, you are HIS, he gives a choice once, join him, once you do there is no more choices, rand destroyed the choden kal because he dosnt need it anymore, it was a crutch and a symbol to needing to be STRONG which, now he knows, the harder you are the eisier to flake until there is nothing left.
Surinder-
I don’t think The Dark One cured Rand. If anything I feel it was the Dark One who was responsible for that dark aura around him and that awful mind set he had before he was “cured”. Lews Therin was afraid of the True Power, but he didn’t try to make Rand stop; he just cowered. Even the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends were afraid of the Choedan Kal. I think Rand realized he was power-tripping. He read the Prophecies and he probably knows he has to use Callandor to win. I also think it may be better this way, even though it does seem silly to destroy a potential weapon that could help you to win.
What about when the prophecies say something like… “Who shall pull it [Callandor] out will follow after.” Remember Nirishma retrieved Callandor for Rand when he fought the Seanchan???… Any thoughts on this?
surinder–
Why would shai’tan cure lewis therin…???
the man who has kept him from breaking the prison from the start of time…??
Think logically dude
niki–
I dont understand the question you pose about the callandor ,
Narishma is dead he was put ho sleep by rand wasn’t he ,before or in book 9
Nah that was a different guy narishima was definately there in the twelth one with that naeff guy
Well guys im pretty sure that Lews Therin never existed it was rands subconscious all along as he realized that in book 12, he destroyed choden kal because he realized from his past life that he couldnt seal the dark one with brute forsce. He now knows he needed to show some trust and he’ll have to use callandor in a circle with 2 woman, likely after destroying the remaining seals. I’m also fairly sure that the towers of midnihgt are in the seanchan lands. Likely Mat will go over with Tuon while she tries to restore order and Rand may go to try and gain peace. Or it’s the tower of ghenji which in my mind is a bit less likely but i can’t be sure till the book comes out.Remember that min says that she sees two men in her viewings of rand and they merge into one, she says one will live while the other shall die. I believe its referring to the merging of rand and lews therin, so i think in the end lews therin will die at the last battle and rand will survive….. Think about it and add what you think is wrong
and no narishma is still quite alive he retrieved callandor for rand earlier to defend him while he cleansed the true source hes now bonded to an aes sedai and perfectly healthy
Jon-
First you say Lews Therin doesn’t exist, then you say you think that Min’s viewing of the two merging is Rand and Lews Therin and that one of them will die??? I think Lews Therin is real. How else do you explain the knowledge and memories that Rand has gained from him? But, personally, I think the two men merging is Rand and Moirdin. Since there is some kind of link between them now, maybe something will happen to one if the other dies? Just speculating…
And the Towers of Midnight are DEFINITELY in Seanchan in a city called Imfaral. It is labeled on a map of Seanchan in “The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time.” by RJ and Teresa Patterson.
Shadow’s Bane-
When Rand is fighting the Seanchan in the mountain passes, he sends Narishma to retrieve Callandor and quotes part of the prophecies…
“Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade? ”
Rand only quotes the second half (…who draws it out…” He obviously thinks this means Narishma, because he put Callandor back into the Heart of the Stone to hold Tear’s heart. I think Narishma will play a critical role in the Last Battle. He already has proven his trust. Just looking for other people’s thoughts….
yeah i was contradicting myself a bit, well more than a bit well in book 13 he says lews therin was just part of his mind but i think they just actually merge, and yes he probably will play a large role
as in narishma will play a large role hes one of the few male channelers rand shows trust in
That part where it says that he will have to die to live. Could it not mean that when he destroyed the Choedan Kal and when Lewis Theron disappeared that he “died”? (I know he wasn’t a real person anymore(as he died long ago…), just Rand’s madness or something) If he didn’t do that he would have destroyed everything and the Dark One would have won… Tuan also said something about a profficy of when he cries on his grave. Could this all have a connection?
And also that merging that Min talked about. It must be his connection with Moridin that something is going to happen with. Remember whe Rand lost his hand Moridin also felt it…
i think that narishma will serve as rand’s right hand
In the series later i have read that prophecy before
I just mixed narishma with the asha’man that rand killed by giving poison because he was going mad ,
Well has anyone given any thought how matt is going to rescue moirene from alfeen and elfeen,
Brigette says this to perrin in teranthanoid that elfeen & alfeen are a different type of evil,very different from the dark one
I think the obvious way they are going to rescue Moiraine is by “cheating” just like in the game Snakes and Foxes.
“Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.”
Noal (Jain) has much courage, Mat will have his strikers and Thom will have his harp and flute like always. I’m not sure about the iron though. Hopefully they think it through and prepare something for the iron portion. They need something iron anyway to get into the Tower of Ghenji. So they at least have SOME iron. Also remember that Isam (Luc) went into this Tower… I wonder how that all plays into the story…
hello guys and galls
i’ve been away a couple of days and there’s been an explosion of coments and theories, enough to make your head spin.
just to clarify niki, i didn’t mean shaidar haran was nae blis, i was asking who was nae blis.
and shadow’sbane does he actually use the one power, i can’t remember him doing so, as for him being able to go anywhere, so long as there’s shadow myddraal can do exactly that.
one point i’d like to throw out as well is, do you think that rands mother was the queen of andor who ran away, and that if it was that would make him rightly first sword of andor? :-)
just as a parting comment, i always thought that when it mantions rand dieing at the last battle, that it would be the part of lewis therin that died, but i’m not sure if rand will still have that part of him after what happened on dragon mount, has he rid himself of lewis therin? or is hes still inside rand.
elisid –
I never said that Shaidar Haran channeled one power–he channels true power ,he used it once on demandred to cut him from the source in book 6 at his first appearence,once he uses it on Messena and covers her with black flames in front Avalirn during her time in white tower,once again to free Semiherige from Rand prision,He does need shadows to appear anywhere but it different from other myadrall,
In WOT 12 gathering Strom’s last chapter the Veins of Gold he realises that there was never a Lewis therin it only him it was his thought ,he has memories of lewis therin because Rand is Lewis therin reincarnation its in the last chapter all talk about second chance
And elsid write ur name before writing comments plz
In the Veins of Gold Rand and Lew Become One – Rand Now have all the knowledge with the Know-how to use it in FULL. Rand will not become Reincarnated till the end of the next Age.
Rand is the rightful Ruler of Andor by the blood . Rand is the brother to Gallad by blood of their House.
niki
About cheating in snake & foxes ,you can cheat in a normal game ,but u cant rely on cheating against under surveliance of elfeen and alfeen ,i think before they depart olver is gonna find a way to win snake and foxes without cheating i think that was the only reason the snake and foxes thing releated to olver was introduced
Elsid-
Sorry about that nae’blis thing- I must’ve misunderstood you :)
Also- I don’t think the books ever actually state that Shaidar Haran uses the True Power, but he is able to shield channelers by some force they cannot detect. It seems as though it’s the True Power.
Yes- Tigraine is definitely Rand’s true mother. That also helps to complete one of Elaida’s fortellings (that the royal line of Andor would be the key to winning the Last Battle). But he is not first prince of the sword since he is not Morgase’s first son. That is also why Galad isn’t even though he is older than Gawayn.
I think now that Lews Therin’s voice is gone the “to live you must die” thing is going to involve Rand’s link with Moirdin somehow.
Shadow’s Bane-
There is NO way to win against the snakes and foxes without cheating (by cheating I mean bringing in those forbidden things).I think it would be difficult to go through either of the ter’angreal door frames with musical instruments, iron, or ways to make fire, since there is an old agreement regarding these entrances. But since they’re gonna stroll in through the front door, I think they will be able to gain entrance carrying such items.
And remember Olver’s role was to figure out how to enter the Tower of Ghenji. He asked Birgitte, who told him about carving the symbol which starts the game into the side of the Tower.
Wow guys oh my god.
Havn’t checked my email in a week or two to have 65 emails bringing me back to this post ;]
keep up the good work!
Lovely motivation arnt they my words?
So who’s your favourite character? O_O
The thing about Logian where he is going to get glory or a crown (cant remember exactly). Cant that be that he is going to fight Taim and then become the leader of the Black Tower. He then makes peace/alliance with the White Tower with the help of his Ai Shedai…
philip
it can be that or it can be possible that Rand gives him the throne of one of his province
I had a thought about Rand’s Death,
According to prophecy he has to die,dosen’t he ?
If he does not die he wont be able to full fill his prophecies and defeat the Dark One.
And the prophecy also says to live he has to die
So my thought is that
Rand dies defeating the Dark One ,
And elayne, egwene ,min ,nyneve can find a way to bring him back like brigette was bought back from the world of dreams .
I.e i am relying on if he not killed in a way i.e similar to Balefire .
What do you think……?????
Semi–finals round at http://www.suvudu.com
Rand Al’thor is facing Drizzt a Drow from wizard of the Coast .forgotten realms by R.A.Salvatore.
He is a though Enemy
The prediction is in Rand’s fovour and so are the current polls .
As a WOT fan I want rand to win the finals
So all WOT fans plz swear in the name of light that they will VOTE for Rand and ask their friends(WOT fans or Not) to vote for him,
MAY YOU ALL WALK IN LIGHT
AND
MAY SWORDS REMAIN SHARP
i don’t think that if rand actually died that he could be brought back, the only thing that could bring him back after death would be the dark one, which isn’t likely to happen.
niki
no probs about the missunderstanding, it’s hard to make yourself clear somtimes when trying to get your point across with only a few words, i have to say you prove to be a fountain of knowledge, long may it continue.
elsid
well Rand is bound to the wheel like other heros of the horn ,these heroes didn’t die ,they were in away living in the world of dreams waiting to be spun out or be called by the horn ,so if Rand does not die in a way which is similar to being killed by balefire he could be bought back like brigette came back
Good point Shadow’s Bane.. I never thought about that… But if he does get ripped out of The Unseen World like Birgitte, then he won’t be available to get spun out like so many times before to fight the Dark One. The only way he won’t be NEEDED by humanity in future Ages, is if he somehow finds a way to DESTROY the Dark One, unlikely as that is…
The Wheel of Time turns and Ages come to pass, what is WILL return again once that Age cycles back. The Dragon will definitely be needed to be spun back out to save the world again and again.
niki
While thinking of this theory i did take the above points into consideration
i.e
1 He completes the prophecy and destroy’s the Dark One.
2 that he killed by a way not similar of that of Balefire
By the way did you VOTE for Rand
Shadow’s Bane-
I also forgot to say something about the prophecies. “To live you must die” is not part of the Karaethon Cycle, that was what the Aelfinn told him. I guess it is A prophecy in a way.
Your theory is interesting- you might be right.
Honestly, I don’t remember Min’s viewing (of Logain) involving a crown. Was that a separate viewing besides the golden halo that spoke of glory to come? Obviously he is going to play an important role, but I don’t know about being a king. I’d think there are more politically qualified people in the world for the ruling of nations. I think it more likely that Logain emerges as the head of the Asha’man.
this note is to inform you all that Rand has cleared semi-final round at http://www.suvudu.com ‘s ‘Cage Matches’ and possibly going against Kvothe from the name of the wind by Patrick Rothfussfor the final round.
He is very strong opponent because he is very popular and since the cage matches are more of a popularity contest than fighting contest.
Rand has been weakened because this contest created many Anti-Rand-Fans.Because he was repeatedly made to use balefire against all his enemies ,in the ”assumtion fights”which are there for the entertainment of voters .
According to the my calculation there is 65% chances that Rand might loose this Final round .
So all those who see this message please Vote for Rand to make him win the title The KING OF FANTIES.
RAND AL’THOR VS KVOTHE OR JAIME LANNISTER WILL BE HELD ON 3 APRIL .
The final round of http://www.suvudu.com ‘s cage matches have been finally announced
Its going to be on 6th april
Kinslayer(Rand) Vs Kingslayer(Jaime)
Jaime is a formidable enemy ,even though he wont even last a second against Rand.
He is very very popular and that’s why he is a threat to Rand ,there ”cage matches” are popularity contest.
So please vote for Rand ,he cant loose here ,after eating Jaime Lannister for lunch he has to fight Dark one as well.
chkin
Chkin? What is that supposed to mean?
well my comments weren’t gettin posted here so i wrote that just to check,
Chkin(checking)
WOT OWN REALITY SHOW
http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1225
The tower of ravens is in seachan, right? doesn’t that have to do with mat? seeing as he is the Prince of ravens and all that.
Final round of http://www.suvudu.com ‘s cage matches starts on 6th april
Rand Al’Thor Vs Jaime Lannister & warriora from SOIAF
Pridiction is against him although he is leading in polls by 4% ,he can eaisly loose the match because Jaime is quite famous.
George R R Martin is going to give a write up,
this is known to give a boost to Jaime’s votes.
Plzz vote for Rand now.
And go to http://www.barndonsanderson.com
And urge him to also give an write up
Since this is the Final Match.
May you all walk in Light
you can vote more than once at suvudu matches
clear you cache and tempory data then vote again it works!! You can do this as many times you want.
brandon sanderson has given a writeup about Rand vs Jaime final match
If you have not given you vote go vote now
come on wot fans vote for Rand he barely leadin by 420 votes
jaime fan army is pretty persistant, they just won’t give up
But we’ll show them what
We ,the People of the Dragon are capable of .
go every single Wot fan Vote now.
Go DragonArmy win the battle at suvudu.
Lets crush the empire of Lannisters.
And carve a bloody memory so deep in their mind that will make them wail when they hear the name Rand.
We are the people of Dragon
We fight for the light
yeah i think its prob due to the tower of genji mat and thom and some others are definately going to go in there and try and rescue moraine. It could also be due to the white and now black tower, also there is the sechan tower of ravens?
I think it is a crown that min saw over logain it was during the time he was held captive, or shortly after their escape from the tower. It doesnt have to mean he becomes a king I suppose? lol maybe he becomes the head of the ashamen and also marries the queen of gelhdan, lol thats unlikely i think.
Alton
It was a halo of light, not a crown. Second ‘Fortune rides like the sun on high, with the fox that makes the ravens fly, luck his soul and lightning his eye, he pluck the moons out of the sky” was recited by Noal and is, therefor, not a seaunchan prophecy. Finally Tuon (now Fortuona) read the Prophecies from this side of the ocean and her only complaint was about the dragon bowing to the crystal thrown, so I think it’s safe to assume that they are the same in every other way. Therefor the fact that the “Wolf King” prophecy is real doesn’t mean anything.
Can’t wait for the next book. I was a bit reluctant to read book twelve in case it wasn’t up to scratch. It is.
i was the same pat, but i loved it.
niki just to comment on something you posted ages ago, taim didn’t appear after asmodean dissapeared, he’d been ravaging saldaea after proclaiming himself the dragon reborn, and that was before rand had even left the two river certainly before he ever met asmodean, and evn though there’s something not quite right about him, i don’t think he’s controled by demandred, but then i wouldn’t say that for certain thow.
elsid–
welcome back
Now mostly discussions are done at face book.
And good news is that Rand won the cage match.
Amosedan might hav been killed by Isam
And taim is i think being controlled by demandred ,
remember in book 12 demandred says that ”my army is ready” i think he refers to army of black Asha’man
Elsid- I didn’t mean that he (Taim) appeared for the first time after Asmo died, I meant he showed up for the amnesty right after that. Asmo dies at the end of one book, and Taim appears at the beginning of the next. Ans we KNOW Demandred likes to use proxys. He is too vain to have some ragtag army, and we KNOW he has his army ready- he has ALWAYS envied LTT and being “second best” all of the time. I think it would be JUST like him to be secretly heading an army of Asha’man.
Shadow’s Bane- not everyone is on F/b or wants to be. I post both places so as to be able to discuss with those other people not on F/b.
Elsid- I didn’t mean that he (Taim) appeared for the first time after Asmo died, I meant he showed up for the amnesty right after that. Asmo dies at the end of one book, and Taim appears at the beginning of the next. Ans we KNOW Demandred likes to use proxys. He is too vain to have some ragtag army, and we KNOW he has his army ready- he has ALWAYS envied LTT and being “second best” all of the time. I think it would be JUST like him to be secretly heading an army of Asha’man.
Shadow’s Bane- not everyone is on F/b or wants to be. I post both places so as to be able to discuss with everyone.
my mistake niki sorry, i obviously wasn’t paying attention enough, i was only skimming the back posts, the fact that demandred says his army is ready must have passed me by, but then thats the joy of the series every time you read it you pick something else up that yu’d missed previously.
shadow’sbane i didn’t realise there was a wot fanbase on fb, but thanks for the welcome back ;-)
Elsid-
I know what you mean! I love re-reading the series for that very reason! There are some GREAT discussions happening on Fb for those who are interested.
Sorry everyone for the double post! I was replying from my phone and it kept saying there was a problem so I tried a second time!
So when is the #2 of the last 3 suppose to come out? I read the first one by Sanderson and it was GREAT ! I also read his Mistborn Trilogy and that was absolutely FABULOUS! I am also waiting for the next sequel to The Name of The Wind. Patrick and Brandon are the two major upstarts in fantasy that will be taking over for Robert Jordan and George Martin. (I know Martin is not dead, but he writes so slow he might as well be.)
-nuff said.
I have said all that needs to be said.
Towers of Midnight by Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson is the forthcoming sequel to the novel The Gathering Storm.[1] It is the 13th book in the Wheel of Time series. The title was proposed by Sanderson. The working subtitle for this work (when it was originally supposed to have been three books which made up unified book entitled A Memory of Light) was to be named Shifting Winds.[1] According to the introduction to The Gathering Storm, Sanderson finished half of Towers of Midnight by June 2009. He hoped to have finished the book by December 2009, not including the time that it would take to edit the text, but has already missed the self-imposed deadline.[2] It was expected in late 2010 and is currently anticipated to be composed of 300,000-plus words. According to Brandon Sanderson’s website he has been at 85% completion since March 28, and still is as of May 1, 2010. His February 24th blog post indicated that the reason the progress meter had stopped for two months was due to an extensive edit and rewrite that he commonly performs in his writing process, and to a re-evaluation of the book length
So yea maybe about September 2010 I think it can be expected ;)
They should have released it all in one instead of killing us with the one year wait every time >_>
Brandon,
I couldn’t be more proud of your handling of the 12th book, especially how we last saw both Rand and Egwene. Hope has now infused the ‘wait time’ between books, and that’s a good thing.
You are in a very unique position and circumstance, and I pray the true Lord of Light will impute His grace to the Dragon Reborn legacy, and that mercy will prevail in a way that cannot be overlooked by future generations of people who need a good story.
Shine on brightly,
Razbone
Hello all,
I was very happy with book 12, I thought it was a fascinating read. I was unhappy with only one portion, I didn’t like the way Matt was written, he seemed to be more scattered than in the prior books. I found myself thinking of someone more like “Johnny Depp, in Pirates of the Caribbean”, rather than someone getting closer to a strong and primary figure, it seemed as he was digressing rather than becoming more complex. Either way I am very thankful that Mr. Sanderson is completing the series.
thank you,
John
Re: Rand’s prophesied dying
Rand currently has 3 people in his head. Himself, Lews Therin and some unknown. I think that one of the two (the unknown or Lews Therin) will be the one to die at the last battle and Rand will live.
or possibly both will die leaving Rand alone
The first “other” person in Rand’s head is Lews Therin Telamon, the second “other” person is in my own opinion, most likely Ishamael after they were linked so strangely and strongly at the balefireing. Finally, Ishamael is continually making references to his and Rand being linked throughout time, and if this is so, which is also highly probably and which I also feel has a great deal of merit, would it not also follow that they are linked in some way? I feel that with Jordan’s love of duelism, this is also high on the likelihood scale. Just as there are opposite but equal forces for good and evil in the universe, so there are surrogates which those forces continually use against one another (Rand and Ishamael), in their eternal struggle. Makes enough sense to me, anyhow. Aye Ben? So, that said, it also solves the three being nullified by one bit. Rand has already more or less overcome Lews Therin Telamon, and if in the last battle he defeats Ishamael (as we so strongly figure that he will), Rand will have left himself as the last man standing on the field as that bit says that he will! done and done!
@Ben-
That’s what I originally thought as well, especially given Min’s viewing about Rand and another being “merged” but only one of them can live. It may be… Sometimes I think it’s not going to be as simple as that though. I guess we’ll have to RAFO!
I also wonder if Rand’s failing eyesight and Matt’s prophecy of “Giving up half the light of the world to save the world” are related…
@Ben-
I don’t think so… I think Rand’s eyesight is part of a prophecy that ForTUONa briefly mentioned in tGS… she said something to the extent of “I wonder if he has danced blind upon his grave yet”…
And I think Mat’s “giving up half the light of the world to save the world” either has something to do with his position in Seanchan now or his creating these “dragons” with Aludra. Remember Egwene Dreaming about him bowling, or something like that, with people lives. She knew thousands would die because of it and that an illuminator was somehow involved… But to challenge the dark forces that are going to erupt, I think the Light is going to need those dragons= hence giving up half the light of the world to save the world…
Actually, Mat’s giving up half of the light of the world to save the world is tied in with Egwene’s repeated Dreams about him holding losing an eye or pulling his hat down low to cover a grievous injury to his eye with blood streaming down. Not sure how the injury occurs, however, as Mat is obviously linked to Odin, the Norse god of wisdom, battle, spears and magic (in Mat’s case technology), and also as Odin is associated with communication, foresight and memory, (his two crows, Hugin and Mugin or Munin; Odin is also associated with crows, and with always being seen wearing a wide-brimmed hat), I feel my analysis is fairly solid. Oh, in Norse mythology, Odin gave his eye to the guardians of Urd’s well at the base of the world tree Yggdrasil to get a sip of Urd’s well which was the well of Wisdom. Odin is however slain at Ragnarok, I hope that Mat does better at Tarmon Gaidon.
Post Scriptum: The Aelfinn and the Elfinn are related to two such similar groups within Norse Mythology who could roughly be translated as the light and dark elves, or perhaps closer to our current appreciation of such things as the elves and the dwarves who were somewhere between the gods and humans.
Post, Post Scriptum: Just on my own tangent, the individual who killed or assassinated Asmodean in my own opinion (which I feel has some merit), is obviously Slayer, or Isaam. Isaam is capable of in some manner stepping into the Dream, Tel’aran’rhiod in the flesh and also of stepping out of it at will, and he is several times noted as one of the Shadow’s chief non-gray-man assassins, aside from this, he is also far more devious and sly than any mere gray-man or myrdraal which might have shifted over to the theoretically dark little closet where Asmodean was slain, furthermore, Isaam/Slayer does not use the power and thusly his murder of Asmodean would not have been sensed by any of the channelers within the palace, and neither would the murderer’s seemingly otherwise impossible appearance and disappearance and the seemingly impossible disappearance of Asmodean’s body (into Tel’aran’rhiod). What do you all think?
Just thought of it, the guardians of Urd’s well at the base of yggdrasil ha! That would be the foxy fellows through the door way ter’angreal who then hanged Mat for a while (Odin was hung for seven days) to gain memory or wisdom…entertainingly enough, R.J. with his love of Norse mythology had Mat gain a lot of Wisdom, but in a punny way, as he gained that wisdom through memories gleaned from across the globe from other men’s lives, as in Hugin and Mugin or Munin who travel the world gathering news for Odin Hugin and Mugin/Munin stands for Thought and MEMORY….Memory! Witty man that he was! Perhaps we could philosophically say that Mat gave half of his sight (of his own life and past) to gain the sight and wisdom and past of many other men who were better equipped to perform the function which Mat must perform at Tarmon Gaidon (prepared as in experienced). Bloody Brilliant really! Still though, knowing R.J., I still think that he’s going to find some way to take Mat’s eye. Can’t let him get off easy now can we?!
P.P.S.: “THOUGHT and MEMORY never fade!” GENIUS HILARITY! Hugin and Mugin/Munin; the two crows or ravens on the spear! HA!
Yeah, as to the blind Rand, they keep pushing towards it, foreshadowing it and hinting! Like the reference to the unknown origin of the Fisher King piece, who holds his side and has a blind fold on that one game that the Forsaken were playing. I recall Ishamael ruminating and contemplating upon that subject at one point. He was thinking that it was a very ancient game and what could that little figure possibly be drawn from, by way of inspiration. I love those little intellectual cookies that R.J. hides throughout his stories. Wonderful stuff really! Dancing blind upon one’s own grave though! YIKES!
My thoughts on this is that Padan Fain has a place in helping destroy the dark one (maybe in an inadvertant way). Kind of like smeagol does in LOTR series. Remember he hates Rand and the Dark One.
Right, so I had a thought around the Callandor/Three Become One idea. If it is a power-based equation as people have suggested then Sai’din and Sai’dar represent only two — my supposition is that the third will be the True Power. Scenario No. 1 = Rand (True Power) / Logain (Sai’din) / Alivia or Nynaeve (Sai’dar). Scenario No. 2 = Morridin (True Power) / Rand (Sai’din) / Alivia or Nynaeve (Sai’dar). My feeling is Nynaeve will be too drawn to Lan to be present for this which does lend credence to the “Alivia aiding Rand in his death” Min-viewing. I’d love to hear thoughts on this iif anyone has an opinion.
Honestly Rachel, I disagree, I think that the three becoming one, has to do with Ishamael/Moridin joining or merging with Rand/Lews Therin Telamon. In the books, continuous literary cookies and hints are dropped which insinuate that Ishamael/Moridin at least thinks that he and Rand/Lews Therin Telamon are two sides of the same coin, a duality of nature divided into two beings to maintain the balance of the universe, and as the series is entirely existent within a dualistic universe and that is the entire point of the series, dualism and balance, I think my theory has some merit. But to continue, Ishamael/Moridin feels that he and Rand/Lews Therin Telamon are two and the same, and as Rand has already overcome or functionally incorporated Lews Therin Telamon as of the last book released, we can assume that at least two of the three have become one. As to Rand and Moridin combining, I think that this began somehow when Rand and Moridin crossed their balefire streams in Shadar Logoth somehow creating some sort of singularity in the time space continuum via the effect which balefire has upon time and space and the fact that the two streams were linked to both men at the same time, who can say what really could happen? Anyhow, soon after this balefire stream crossing, Rand begins to see another man in his mind, a man whose face is hazy or unclear…What better way to describe a man whose inner mind must still associate itself with its former face after what, three thousand years of having the same face, and who has recently been transplanted into a new body? Who knows what is going on in the mind and subconscious of a mad man like Ishamael/Moridin? Anyhow, I strongly think that this hypothesis of events has a good deal of merit, what is your take on it, your opinion?
Rachel–
Nice threory about ”three would be one” , i like the senario.1.
But I dont think that its might be correct, becoz Cadsuane says in WH ,that Callandor can only be used safely when the Man using it is connection with two women (i.e the circle of one power).i think the two women will be Aliva and Elayneor Aviendha, Aliva becoz she is strong and is supposed to help Rand Die , and Elayne/Aviendha becoz of thier knowlege of ter’angreals and sa’angreals.
Sorry for late reply guys and gals.
Jon — As I remember Moraine tells Rand, Perrin and Mat that even acknowledging Shaitan dreams gives him power over you. So think Rand has now used true power without knowing what he was doing and I don’t remember reading that Rand has sweared to him.
you are only concentrating on the recent events
Think dude, It’s a brilliant plan. Why do you think that Shaitan has forbidden all the forsaken from killing him. Why do you think, Shaitan has linked Moridin to Rand? If you see the whole plot together you will notice that Rand was being slowly manipulated by the Shaitan into becoming evil and in the 13th book manipulated into using true power. I don’t remember the book number but Robert Jordan has very clearly pointed this — Moridin is playing ludus and starts laughing coz he thinks “one cannot lose when one is playing from both sides.” If you want another proof, then read “Eye of the world” —-Shaitan tells Rand in dreams that he has served Shaitan in the past. Shaitan wants Rand as his servant. Do you think that coz Shaitan could not win Rand by persuasion or force, he will subside? He is Shaitan. And Shaitan doesn’t play by rules. He tricks, he cheats.
Niki—- I rephrase my words –cheodan kal and Lewis Therin’s ravings were the 2 things which Rand was using as anchor to stop himself from using true power.
Now we all know that Shaitan can cure the madness of the tainted saidin. He had cured Lewis Therin. Apart from this, we don’t know any other way by which madness can be cured so far. Now by curing Rand and by making him destroy the Cheodan Kal, Shaitan has removed the very two things which were stopping Rand from using the true power.
Lewis could and would never use true power. He prefers becoming a kinslayer again rather than using it. Had Lewis been able to stop Rand from doing something ? ????????
And Cheodan kal was not a potential weapon for winning. Lewis says in 13th book that raw power is not going to work against Shaitan.
And “Shadow’sbane” ———Your comment is wrong.
It is the creator who has kept Shaitan in prison, not Lewis Therin. You have forgotten that Shaitan has cured Lewis Therin in the past. Now you will say that it was done to torment lewis. But this is not so. Even at that time Ishamael offers him that if Lewis becomes Shiatan’s servant, shaitan will give him his loved ones back alive. The goal behind curing Rand is same, only the tactics has changed.
Why is it that in jsut about every blog or discussion or TGS noone has mentioned that Rand used the One Source like Moridin does…it has been stated by the Forsaken that none can touch it except teh Neablis, yet Rand uses it several times in the TGS and no mentioned of any saa. I kinda figured this would be a huge discussion point and cannot find anything on it. Also, now that he is in control of his emotions again, can he still utilize this power?
@EAEverhart- I actually lean more toward the Callandor theory of the “3 become 1″. Although you are right in the fact that Rand is struggling to win his identity from LTT and Moridin, there are many other “3″‘s in the series and we all know how RJ loved allusions. When it comes to the prophecies though and when it’s specifically dealing with how to win the Last Battle, I don’t see how Rand’s struggle with LTT and Moirdin has anything to do with it. A sa’angreal as powerful as Callandor (especially since he knows about the buffer of 2 women), now THAT says “I can help you win”. I definitely think it was the balefire streams that linked them, but I think Min’s viewing of two men merging, but only one can live addresses this. As for LTT, I think after tGS he is gone.
@Surinder- you are forgetting, or maybe just overlooking the fact, that Shai’tan is the Father of Lies. Who the hell knows what he (or any Forsaken) says is true or not. I personally think that he cured LTT only to torture him and although he SAID he could return his loved ones to him, I don’t think he WOULD’VE. And they would’ve had different bodies and LTT would not have enjoyed that I don’t think.
@Arqueous-The only other place I’ve found discussion on this is Facebook. I, and many others, feel that Rand is able to utilize this power because of their streams of balefire crossing in Shadar Logoth. I personally don’t think he will have to worry about the saa or the maddness because it seems as if Moridin is a sort of buffer for him. It is my opinion that even though Rand is now in control of his emotion, he will still be able to tap the TP. It is his link with Moirdin that allows this and I don’t think that link will be broken until one of them dies. I also think this ability will play a major role in upcoming events.
Not to mention Rand’s growing sickness every time he touches saidin. I think this is another hint that Rand/LTT and Moridin are going to be merged. I don’t think we ever read of Moridin using saidin; this may be because he was stilled in his former life as Ishamael (If Rand is right about that fact) when he was killed. That would explain why Rand has so much difficulty with wielding saidin. The closer he gets to becoming merged with Moridin, the worse it gets. This would also explain why Rand can use the True Power with ease and without knowing what he’s really doing. In my opinion, the merging is most likely going to be similar to a warder bond. We’ll probably see some unexpected effects (like a sharing of emotions, dreams or thoughts) along with their link shared link to the True Power. This kind of bond would allow Alivia to “kill” Rand by killing Moridin, who would be a part of him, and would also explain the Aelfinns’ answers and/or prophecies like the one written at the end of tGS a little better. Just thought I’d throw that out there :) And I admit here and now that I’m probably going to be completely wrong, lol.
Just finished the 12th book, and I’m extremely excited for #13.
Personally, I think that Rand and LT were the two that merge together. I don’t think you can take all of Min’s views in a literal sense. At the end of Veins of Gold, it says:
“He knew–somehow–that he would never again hear Lews Therin’s voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.”
Perhaps this is a realization that Rand is his own person. Remember, Min’s viewing said that Rand would struggle with a second person before one of them came out on top and took control. Rand struggled to keep control of saidin from LT, and he finally came out on top.
As for why Fortuona was able to resist Rand’s ta’veren influence, I believe it happened because of Mat’s link with her. The two ta’veren forces clashed, and Mat’s connection with Fortuona was stronger than Rand’s.
That’s my take on it, but I can definitely see a lot of these other scenarios taking place.
I also think that Rand and LTT have merged but the question is will Rand have all of LTT memory and knowledge…I am leaning towards yes.
I think Fortuona was able to resist solely because Rand THINKS he has the power to bend the pattern with his will but I dont think he actually does. I think he has instinctively figured out how to project menace just like Dashiva (who was secretly Osangar) did during Rand’s first official meeting/confrontation with Cadsuane. I think he made Cadsuane THINK he had the power and she believed it.
I also think that the Towers of Midnight are a reference to Seanchan location. Earlier in the series, Min had a viewing which she understood (side note:I think Min has 2 types of viewings; ones she knows the meaning to and they always happen and ones she does not understand and represent possible futures). Her viewing was about Rand sitting on some kind of chair but that the owner of the chair would be murderously angry at him sitting in it. I believe this refers to Rand sitting on the crystal throne (which, by the way, if I am not mistaken is an terengreal that lays a kind of compulsion on anyone in the area to automatically obey the person sitting on the throne absolutely). This means he will have to spend time in Seachan to get information.
anyway, that’s my 2 cents
That’s a very interesting theory about Min’s viewings, and something I never even thought about. It’s definitely a possibility, and one I’d like to lean to as well. Her clear cut views ALWAYS happen and she ALWAYS understands them. Like you’ve pointed out, some of her viewings are fuzzy to her, which makes it highly probable that it’s a view into one of the infinite outcomes of the Pattern. Very good theory, jking!
I have read the 12 book for 2 months and now cant wait for the 13! Rand is stupid assssss….Like Frodo….:D :D :D
Finished the whole series again up to the most recent. i felt the same way J Dub in regards to Rand finally merging with LTT to be part of min’s viewing. I do not think that Mordin and Rand will merge, but i do think that they are tied with one another because of the balefire streams as well as the initial fight at Falme. Not sure as to why that wound cannot be healed, mayhaps because it was done by True Power or with Saiden that was tainted (may explain why he is getting ever more sick each time he reaches for the power as it happens over time unless he is very angry or upset when there is no reason for it). If Rand uses true power through Mordin, who’s to say that he cannot do with it what he did with Choedan Kal, though i also think he destroyed it to keep it from others while he uses Callendor (or however The Sword that Is Not A Sword is spelled), or he realizes that he does not need it to win. Meanwhile some of the praposals that EA Everhart and others has suggested have some merit, but i would not rely on anything till the series has ended..
Has anyone else noticed Mazrim Taim and Moridins affinity towards black and red in their dwellings?
I have.. i believe that Taim is under Moridin though, rather than Taim being Moridin. Taim is a bit cautious around Rand, and Moridin seems to be waiting his turn to take him out while stacking the chess board in his favor.
Has anyone else noticed that around book 7-11, the book kind of drags a little? I loved book 1-6 and I did like the others but after the 6th one, all the description seemed a little excessive. Apparently, in book 13, Perrin will confront the wolf in him. When i first read them, i thought that should have happened about book 5 or 6, after that huge build up, but then it went kindof hiatus a little.
I do love the books though, and RJ was a complete genius to make this world. It would never be a movie or game though due to the complexity of the magic, 5 different types of magic (I don’t know what to call the 4 elements and spirit thingy) as well as how you can have different weaves and the fatigue that comes with it, plus the reason for the addiction. It could never be a movie, possibly a game though.
New book is coming out on the 2nd November 2010.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that the books have slowed down considerably as the series has progressed. Perrin is by far one of my favorite characters, and I’ve also wondered when he’ll finally accept his connection like Elyas.
I believe that R.J. wanted to let the characters progress more before reaching the series climax. You learn a lot more about the women in this book after the sixth in the series, as well as an extraordinary amount of information about “secondary” characters such as Berelain. The depth that Jordan put into each of these characters is amazing, and having an actual care to expand secondary and fringe characters into people that we’ve come to either love or hate.
I also agree that I can’t see this series adapted for the screen, or even television. There is way too much detail and information to try to fit into something that, when edited, will be chopped down into a 3 hour long disappointment.
what i dont understand is why havent they made a movie or video game out of this series? it blows lotr out of the water! there is nothing better than the wheel of time series. long live RJ!
LOTR was only a trilogy and had a much more linear path than WOT. WOT hops between characters a lot, and focuses on more than three groups of characters. You’d have to include the Forsaken, Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Moraine, Aviendah, Elayne as well as some “minor” characters that have an impact on the series. I just think there’d be too much information left out to make a great, or even just decent, movie.
Hi, I’ve only ever voiced my opinion about any WoT minutia once online and it was completely random about this same topic and I will chime in again b/c I feel very confident about this. Here goes.
As far as Asmodean, I think we find out his killer on pg. 36 of tGS:
“In fact–now that Graendal had a clue that Semirhage had been pulling strings with the Seanchan–She was confident she knew the plans of every one of the other seven remaining Chosen.”
It’s right there guys. I mean, there would really not be any reason to point out that number “seven” to us readers unless it’s being done for a reason. There is ABSOLUTELY NO way that Graendal would know that Asmodean had been killed unless she was the one that did it (whether herself or through an assassin). She knows that there have been 5 killed –Aginor,Be’lal,Rahvin,Sammael,AND Asmodean (@ that point Semirhage was still alive) so that means that the other 7 she is referring to are: 1Demandred,2Mesaana,3Aringar,4Moridin,5Cyndane,6Moghedian and 7Semirhage! There it is in B&W people….GRAENDAL KILLED ASMODEAN!!!! yw